[geeklog-devel] CSS-Layout possible!

[Tony Bibbs]

In the end I think we should support using straight CSS with DIV's and Tables.  We do a lot of this stuff at work and what we find is that generally the Header/Footer and body content are put in their own TD tags and within them we do a lot of DIV's.  It's pretty much how we strike a balance between overdoing it with tables and trying to make the most use of CSS.

So maybe we can have a config file switch or a switch in the theme's functions.php that lets the theme developer decide?  I don't think this has to be all or nothing...I think we could accommodate either methods.

--Tony

----- Original Message ----
From: Ramnath R Iyer <casual.dodo at gmail.com>
To: Geeklog Development <geeklog-devel at lists.geeklog.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:18:17 AM
Subject: Re: [geeklog-devel] CSS-Layout possible!

On Tuesday 18 September 2007 00:18:18 Mark R. Evans wrote:
> I've been involved in many 'discussions' on tables vs CSS and I've yet to
> see a convincing argument for either approach.  Each solution seems to have
> its place in the world.  Generally the benefits of a CSS only solution is
> that it makes the content available to more users.  For example, if you are
> using a browser that does not support the CSS (screen readers, tools used
> by those who are visually impaired, etc.), CSS degrades very well.  The
> typical 3 column layout is center, left, right in a CSS solution.  This
> way, if the CSS cannot be interpreted, the main content is shown first.

This is just a minor point when you consider the advantages of CSS over 
tables. I have used both in my designs. The primary disadvantage of tables is 
that it ties the design to the content rigidly. Theming is difficult and 
limited. One of the main objectives of CSS is to separate the content from 
the layout, so that anyone who comes along can design a stylesheet that 
*completely* changes the look of the website, with no changes made to the 
HTML.

CSS falls short in some ways; in fact, this goal could be achieved only with 
absolute positioning of all elements, which is generally not a workable 
solution. But in my opinion, it is better than tables, providing much more 
flexibility with the design, not just cleaner code.

Table layouts typically tend to stagnate, whereas with CSS, new designs can be 
developed quickly and efficiently.

There are some quirks (as always) but most problems have solutions (or at 
least good hacks), and the situation today is much better than before, with 
IE 5.5 and older browsers on their way out.

> With this solution, it actually moves it to the end, so that the right,
> left and then center content would be shown.  At least in the current table
> layout, you get left then center.  So we are back to what are the true
> benefits of a CSS only solution?

I don't think this matters too much. Typically, mobile devices etc. are the 
only ones with these issues, since non-CSS browsers are pretty much dead. the 
CSS way is to define different stylesheets for different kinds of media.

Floating columns are quite commonly used to create multi-columned layouts. 
Right floats *have* to come before non-floats if they are to be displayed at 
the same level. There are tricks to get such columns to work exactly as you 
need it. In my opinion, the effort is worth it. See 
http://www.csszengarden.com/ for some really amazing stuff with CSS.

> Also, we are starting to see some very nice themes come out for Geeklog.  I
> would hate to see each of them break on the next release and I'm afraid
> that could be the result if the right / left blocks are both in the header.
>  If this could be implemented as an option so that legacy themes can still
> work, I think that would be an acceptable approach.

I'm not saying that CSS is the best option for Geeklog, but I think it should 
move towards CSS even if it breaks some stuff. The best way to do it would 
probably be to release preview versions of the new code and and give people 
time to update their design code.

That being said, there *have* been times when I've shifted from a pure CSS to 
a table layout out of sheer frustration. :-)

-- 
Ramnath R Iyer