[geeklog-devel] Is this rocking the boat?

Vincent Furia vfuria at gmail.com
Mon Aug 2 14:55:57 EDT 2004 

We should put together a list of what Propel needs in order for us to
use it to see if our requirements are insurmountable.

>From there, our options:
1. Ask propel folks if they can get it done, and if so how long it will take.
2. Do it ourselves

In any case, I think at least a couple of us should install a try out
Propel to see if all this work is worth it in any case.  Tony, have
you done this already?

-Vinny

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:51:33 -0500, Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> Hrm, sticky situation.  I guess we could try and get a hold of the
> authors of this XSL stuff and see if they have any timelines for updates
> to support other libraries.
> 
> It would have been nice if the Propel folks would have added optional
> support for the XSL support in PEAR.
> 
> --Tony
> 
> 
> 
> Vincent Furia wrote:
> 
> >>From php.net:
> >
> >http://us2.php.net/xslt
> > This PHP extension provides a processor independent API to XSLT
> >transformations. Currently this extension only supports the Sablotron
> >library from the Ginger Alliance. Support is planned for other
> >libraries, such as the Xalan library or the libxslt library.
> >
> >My reading of this is only Sablotron is supported, not libxslt.
> >
> >-Vinny
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:31:30 -0500, Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On linux it is libxslt I'm guessing.  Yes, I already have it.  However,
> >>I have compiled PHP and provided neither the --with-xsl  nor the
> >>--without-xsl and the xsl related functions listed in the PHP manual
> >>don't work.  My guess is this is because the XSL support is still listed
> >>as 'experimental' (as is the SOAP support).  We should follow-up with
> >>the PHP folks to see if they plan on including it as you described (i.e.
> >>only if the libraries are already installed) once they are deemed
> >>'stable'.
> >>
> >>Also, it's probaby worth noting that this would all work drastically
> >>different in the case of windows.  How, I'm not sure but since they
> >>typcially don't install from source, they most likely will have
> >>additional steps.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--Tony
> >>
> >>Vincent Furia wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I just looked in PHP 5's configure file.  By default, XSLT is included
> >>>if the supporting libraries are available on the host operating
> >>>system.  Is XSLT included with most linux distributions?  What about
> >>>Windows?  Do standard binary installs of PHP 5 on Windows include
> >>>XSLT?
> >>>
> >>>-Vinny
> >>>
> >>>On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 11:23:30 -0500, Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Good question.  I know the new XML support in PHP5 is included by
> >>>>default.  I'd have to search the manual to see if it enabled by
> >>>>default.  If it is, let's plan on using it.  If not, I think this is
> >>>>probably a deal killer.
> >>>>
> >>>>--Tony
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Vincent Furia wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I just noticed this about propel (pre-installation requirements):
> >>>>>
> >>>>>#  PHP >= 5.0.0 with XSLT support (--with-xsl on *nix, or enable
> >>>>>php_xsl.dll on Windows)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Is XSLT a commonly supported item?  Can we depend on it being compiled
> >>>>>in on most PHP5 installations at ISPs?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-Vinny
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:13:03 -0500, Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, as far as other DB connections go, that is up to the coder,
> >>>>>>obviously.  GL2 should only worry about talking to the GL2 database so
> >>>>>>if you want to access another database you should, without much hassle,
> >>>>>>be able to open connections using the Creole DB layer that Propel uses:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>http://creole.phpdb.org/wiki/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Obviously you can still do your own with PEAR::DB or raw MySQL in your
> >>>>>>code.  The DAO layer simply provides a slick way to prevent the
> >>>>>>developer from issuing raw SQL in the code...sometimes that can't be
> >>>>>>avoided and I'm sure there is probably way to issue raw SQL in unique
> >>>>>>scenarios (I need to verify that).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>--Tony
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Blaine Lang wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>It does look interesting and like many new libraries or models, it may be
> >>>>>>>able to improve code readability, reduce code size, and improve
> >>>>>>>re-useability but I do wonder if
> >>>>>>>1) There are any SQL usage restrictions or more complex SQL queries that
> >>>>>>>will not work.
> >>>>>>>2) Will you still be able to use another DB access method and direct mysql_
> >>>>>>>calls using PHP
> >>>>>>>3) Making GL2 too complex to understand for developers will effect it's
> >>>>>>>support
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I have had reason on several occasions to need to access another mysql
> >>>>>>>database when doing application integration. I just used the direct php
> >>>>>>>mysql_ calls and created a 2nd DBlink. The current mysql library in GL1.x
> >>>>>>>does not support this. We should consider this need in GL2
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Blaine
> >>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>From: "Vincent Furia" <vfuria at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>To: <geeklog-devel at lists.geeklog.net>
> >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 11:17 PM
> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [geeklog-devel] Is this rocking the boat?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I haven't had enough time to read up on this extensively, but it looks
> >>>>>>>promising.  We just have to make sure that it fulfills all our needs
> >>>>>>>completely and won't cause any problems down the road.  Also, we have
> >>>>>>>to be able to support it on the off chance that the current developers
> >>>>>>>drop the project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>My one worry is possible performance penalties.  I think we should
> >>>>>>>check how much overhead Propel requires.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Most importantly:  I want to see GL2 get moving really soon. So a
> >>>>>>>decision on this has to happen soon.  Can we get enough research done
> >>>>>>>on this topic that we're not causing more delays?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I'll spend some more time reading the Propel docs. If nothing else the
> >>>>>>>idea sounds pretty interesting.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>-Vinny
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:38:26 -0500, Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Ok, I think I sent this link here, but the more I read what I see, the
> >>>>>>>>more I like it.  Please take some time to read about Propel:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>http://propel.phpdb.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>And read the user guide:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>http://propel.phpdb.org/docs/user_guide/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>The long and short of it is this.  We could implement Data Acces Objects
> >>>>>>>>that our code uses to interact with the database.  DAO is a good idea no
> >>>>>>>>matter what DB abstraction layer we use and regardless if we use a tool
> >>>>>>>>like Propel.  Essentially it hides the data access specifics from the
> >>>>>>>>developers.  Instead developers will call simple methods on the data
> >>>>>>>>access objects and let the DAO layer do the grunt work.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>We could essentially use DAO to wrap the use of Propel for data acess.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>That said there are some pros and cons:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Pros:
> >>>>>>>>1) Clean API, developers no longer have to write SQL except in really
> >>>>>>>>rare instances.
> >>>>>>>>2) Object oriented...right in line with GL2
> >>>>>>>>3) Database changes are easier, now developers don't have to find all
> >>>>>>>>SQL effected by a database change.  We simply change things at the
> >>>>>>>>Propel level (wrapped by DAO), modify our HTML templates and we are off
> >>>>>>>>to the race.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Cons:
> >>>>>>>>1) It is conceptionally more complicated.  Requires some ramp up.
> >>>>>>>>2) Uses it's own DB abstraction layer (i.e. you can't use PEAR::DB even
> >>>>>>>>if you wanted to).
> >>>>>>>>3) It's in Beta.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I think this tool could really save a ton of time.  Please give this a
> >>>>>>>>gander and try using it against a very simply table and let me know your
> >>>>>>>>thoughts.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>--Tony
> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>geeklog-devel mailing list
> >>>>>>>>geeklog-devel at lists.geeklog.net
> >>>>>>>>http://lists.geeklog.net/listinfo/geeklog-devel
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>geeklog-devel at lists.geeklog.net
> >>>>>>>http://lists.geeklog.net/listinfo/geeklog-devel
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>geeklog-devel at lists.geeklog.net
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>http://lists.geeklog.net/listinfo/geeklog-devel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>http://lists.geeklog.net/listinfo/geeklog-devel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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